Dr. Phil--Young Marriage

[Marrying_the_Good_Husband]

Who saw today's Dr. Phil? It was a really enlightening look about young couples who feel pressured into marriage or marry without really knowing what they're getting into. The first couple got married at 18 because her father was in the church and they felt the pressure of their faith. At 28, they realize what a mistake it was because they don't know each other at all and can't get along. The second couple got married when she was 20 and he was 42--they married because she wanted to get out of her mother's house and figured he would "take care of her" and have the children she really wanted. And there they were feeling the same way as the first couple now that she's 29.

I related a lot to that. I've told my first marriage story before. How I started dating my ex when we were 18 and got married at 21 when I was pregnant. Like the girls on the show, I had a hint of doubt in the back of my mind, but I thought it would just work out and it would be happily ever after because we were in loooooove--as if that's all it took to be married. Before I got pregnant I thought how maybe after we graduated college and got out in the real world, who knows what would have happened--even though we were already engaged. I had no reason NOT to be with him--we got along fine and he treated me well, and I also didn't really have anyone else, since I spent all my time with him. I think I was scared to know what life would have been like without him. When I got pregnant I initially wanted to wait to marry. Instead I felt the pressure of my mother who said we HAD to get married or she wouldn't help with letting us live with her or her watching the baby. I felt like we had no other choice, so I put my doubts behind me and focused on the Cinderella tale and picket fences and the baby we were having and growing old together in rocking chairs on our front porch...

I think Dr. Phil had some REALLY good points on his show. He said how marriage should be about moving towards something, not away from something. So, you shouldn't move to marriage to get away from your parents or to be an adult or just because you want kids or because of guilt or fear. You should only get married when you KNOW you can work together through differences and you have the same goals and plans when it comes to finances and home and family--and not just in general terms, but in every specific instance of that: This is how we'll discipline our kids and this is how much time we'll spend with in-laws and this is exactly how much money we'll save for this and spend on that...

Like the girls on the show, I also thought I was making a good decision when I was 21. And also like them, I realized at 28 what a poor, uninformed decision it was. It wasn't even a decision. I think it was based on feelings. The feeling of "love" isn't enough to marry someone. The "desire" for children is not a reason to marry someone. The "fear" of being alone or thinking this is the best you might find or what if your biological clock runs out is not a reason to marry someone.

I realize now at 31 and marrying for the second time how DIFFERENT my reasons and methods are for getting married this time. There's no fairy tales or fantasies or fears. It's not an emotion-based action as much as it is a logical progression based on a deep respect and understanding--of ourselves (foremost) but also equally of each other. I know myself. Dave knows himself. And we know how where we're going together will support where we're going individually. I couldn't have said the same thing 10 years ago. I had no clue who I was.

I have NO intention of starting another young brides/older brides debate! I know I've gotten in "trouble" for similar comments before about how much a person changes from their early twenties to their late twenties. I just felt a very strong connection to today's Dr. Phil, and I was just wondering what everyone else thinks about it.

[cru5h]

Well - you know I feel ya on this. I was engaged before, but only because I was pregnant. We were both 19 and didn't know sh*t (that's not a generalization, it's referring to us @ 19). I was smart enough to realize that living an eternity with this man would be nothing but hell. We called the engagement off and I broke up with him. Best move of my life. I wasn't smart enough, however, to choose my later relationships better. But I ended up getting El Richymo after some personal growth. I can't say I was fully "developed" but I was a lot better off than I had been, and I've grown more, he's grown more. It takes time.

[Kim&Bob2004]

I didn't catch the show but it sounds like some really valid points were brought up. I do shudder when young girls at 18 or 19 get married saying they are so in "Loooovvvveeee". As I have said before, I don't think at that young age we really know what we want, or our own dreams even, how can we really decide to spend forever with someone if we don't know if our goals and dreams match. I know there are couples that do, but I think they are they exception which proves the rule. Make sense? Most of us are not that self aware in our teens and early 20's.

[Heather]

I loved the chair analogy and how he said each leg is like a foundation you need to have before you "safely" sit on it. I am paraphrasing because I can't remember his exact words, but he said if you only have sex/attraction/desire (my words, not his) then you'll never have a safe foundation to build upon. He stated the other legs are things like mutual goals, values, priorities. The kind of things you need BEFORE you get married...

Jen I'm with you when you say we're different people in our early 20's and late 20's, early 30's. I've probably said it a 1,000 times but I'm SO glad I didn't marry when I was younger. It's probably only been in the last six or seven years that I've realized who I am, with or without someone by my side.

[ljeagle]

I started watching it but got caught on the phone. I missed it all and I really wanted to watch it...

[Kim&Bob2004]

Heather and Jen, I totally agree. The me today is so much different then the me of my 20's.

[Marrying_the_Good_Husband]

Thanks for including the chair part, Heather. I was making dinner and couldn't really hear all of that part--I could tell it was good, though! And I 100% agree with you that you have to know who you are ALONE and love yourself ALONE before you can make a good partner in marriage. It's not about "two halves becoming a whole"--marriage is about two whole people complimenting each other and sharing a life while respecting and supporting each other as individuals. If you're not completely happy or secure with who you are by yourself you can't enter a marriage thinking someone else can give you that happiness, security, or sense of self--or you're going to be disappointed. It's why I worry so much when I hear people say, "He makes me happy." If you need someone to "make you happy," you're setting yourself up for a GREAT fall in the relationship--you'll need more and more to "keep you happy" or when the "romance phase" dies down you're going to feel insecure and unloved. Love and happiness come from within--it's not what another person gives you.

[cru5h]

OMG I hate "he makes me happy" That's a whole lot of pressure to put on another human being. Being someone's reason for existence is quite a draining job.

[Marrying_the_Good_Husband]

VERY well said, Vic.

[whiddle]

I don't think that those are good reasons to marry at ANY age. I am not going to get involved in this conversation though. IMO, Dr. Phil is a moron and a phony. MOST studies show that couples who get married young develop together, are closer, and MORE likely to have a long, happy marriage than couples that wait until they are older or more successful.

[Complicated Woman]

First off, -- I so don't want to fight, just share. I totally respect you girls and appreciate your opinions & insight. But, like whiddle said, I think you can have it together at a young age and be getting married for all the wrong reasons at an older age. Aaaaand I don't really buy that you don't also change from 30 to 40, 40 to 50, and so on. I agree that younger women and men generally have more unrealistic expectations of marriage than older couples, but I think that if you do have a realistic expectations based on advice from and observation of happily married couples, I don't think age alone should preclude you from marriage.

[Heather]

Originally Posted by whiddle

MOST studies show that couples who get married young develop together, are closer, and MORE likely to have a long, happy marriage than couples that wait until they are older or more successful.

Here are some actual divorce statistics in the United States from 2002. These are not "studies", the info is derived from the US Census Bureau.

• Median age at first divorce for male - 30yrs, for females 29yrs.
• Percentage of people that married under the age of 20 who eventually got divorced as of 1995 - 40%
• Percentage of people that married over the age of 25 who eventually got divorced as of 1995 - 24%

Sorry Whiddle, you can't argue with facts. Most of us on here are talking about ourselves alone, however it's hard to ignore the truth.

Just saw your post CW - I think most of us would agree that being young shouldn't preclude you from marriage. Speaking for myself alone, I wouldn't and couldn't have thought of being married in even my mid-twenties. Like Margie's Natalie, I wasn't "done" yet.

[Complicated Woman]

LOL, H, I just saw YOUR post and edited mine to make my meaning more clear -- we were changing at the same time.

[Heather]

Too funny!

[munchkin]

I agree with CW. Not everyone matures or grows at the same rate. This applies to marriage also. You cannot blame divorce purely on the rate of young marriage (I know that none of you did that, don't worry). But for me, and CW also, I know what I want and I am happy with my relationship. I will be 22 when we get married, not some little self-obsessed teenager who's in LOOOOOOOOVE.
And like Whiddle, I think Dr.Phil is a phony moron. It's shows like his that make us young brides feel like we're being set up for failure.

[Marrying_the_Good_Husband]

I don't think the point of the show was to make young couples feel like they're being set up for failure, but rather to say have you considered this, this and this? If you have, good. If not, you shouldn't be getting married. But agreed that is the truth for ANY age. I think the difference is that the older you are, the more you've "lived" and the more realistic view you have on life and of yourself. If someone goes from living with mom and dad to living with a husband, you haven't developed your independence yet. A fact Dr. Phil stated was that the divorce rate for those who marry at 20 and younger is 43% higher than the average divorce rate. But, yeah, some people NEVER "grow up." They never examine themselves and can spend a lifetime either in a bad marriage or being divorced multiple times because they don't know who they are and they blame their partner for their emotions. And in addition to discussing the show, I was also talking about MY personal experiences and how fully I can relate to that. I don't think everyone will have that experience. Though I don't know anyone who hasn't gone through the "quarter life crisis." I think at the teens and early twenties we have this vision of where we see our life going and we think we'll just have it, and then you hit 25-27 and it's like: I should have this and I should be that and I don't know where I'm going; and how did I get here and where do I go from here and who am I in this world...? And then through that you start discovering the things about yourself you never knew. No doubt as we enter further stages in our life there will be more changes. But once you have the foundation for really KNOWING yourself, you're more equipt to handle what comes after that.

[Heather]

I'm not a *huge* fan of Dr. Phil but I do enjoy seeing how he handles certain situations. I watched a documentary about him a while ago and it turns out he's broken several business deals with former partners that helped to put him where he is now. They said he is the biggest egotistical jerk they had ever met!

[Marrying_the_Good_Husband]

Dave also has some opinions on Dr. Phil--how he's the biggest codependent there is, which makes sense since his father was an alcoholic. However, we both think if you can get past some of his sometimes inappropriate messages and means, he makes a lot of really good points. It's hard to deconstruct someone's life and make an impact--and good television--in a 12-minute segment. But I think that the purpose of the show is not to "solve" people's issues (which is impossible because it would take months or YEARS of therapy), but just to shed light on it: This is where you are. Do you like it? Do you WANT to change? This is the appropriate behavior....

[Complicated Woman]

First off, to all of the older brides on here, I did want to say thanks. I got offline last night and was thinking about this thread, and I realized that even though some of you may be (or you may not be, IDK) wary of what Tom and I have decided, you totally get excited with me about new developments on the wedding and career situation, you give opinions and support -- you all are so great regardless of what you may think of my situation. I really appreciate that.

Now, part 2 of my assessment of younger marriage. Please do tell me what you think.

I know that there really are plenty of younger couples who get married for all the wrong reasons. My parents were married when they were 20, and they are divorced now. My mom will tell you it's because they were young, she didn't know herself, she didn't know she would change, he just didn't end up being the right person for her, etc. I can clearly see that it's because my mother is selfish. She wanted to be catered to, she expected to be in LOOOOVE forever, and when those feelings faded, she decided she was with the wrong person. She's doing the same lousy stuff now to her new husband as she did when she was 25 to my dad. For her (and I think probably others) blaming it on not knowing yourself is simply an excuse.

Another example -- Tom and I are friends with a couple who has been married for 16 years and they are still going strong, they're very happy with their relationship. They got married at 22 and 23, respectively. The husband, two years into their marriage, realized he didn't want to be a music teacher, but a pastor. His career in pastoral ministry has led to them living in Romania under awful conditions, in Rome, and in a Mens Homeless Shelter (he ran it). She had expected that they'd live locally for the next 25 years at least...she never dreamt of living all those different places. They really didn't know themselves when they got married -- they didn't know what they were getting into in that respect -- but they knew that they were committed to loving and serving each other self-sacrificially, no matter what that meant. They might not know what exactly life had in store for them, but they knew that whatever it was, they were doing it together for better or worse. They took seriously what their marriage vows meant, and now they are a strong, happy couple raising two beautiful daughters and giving marriage advice to people like Tom and I.

I think society sets us up for failure -- we see totally unrealistic views of love portrayed everywhere. We feel as though someone else should complete us and make us happy and we place a burden on the shoulders of marriage that can never be met. We blame marriage failing on the personality of the spouses, not on their lack of committment to one another and unwillingness to love one another through the worst. Are people more likely to subscribe to that at a younger age? Probably. But I don't, and I'm sure there are other young couples like Tom and I out there who take seriously what we're about to do and who believe that being married means figuring out what it takes to make our relationship flourish through all kinds of circumstances, those we can anticipate and those we can not.

ETA: I'm so freaking long winded!

[Marrying_the_Good_Husband]

I like everything you said, Bryanne! You gave a very good example of a couple who *could* have selfishly said: "This isn't what I signed up for" and bailed out--which people do far too often in marriages. But they found a way to make it work for them.

And I DO support you and Tom. I also think you are emotionally VERY mature. At a younger age than most, you started exploring who you are and working on yourself. It is a critical step in emotional maturation--you got there before the typical age where it just "hits" most people.

I wanted to look up some info on the "Quarter-life crisis," as I mentioned. These are just two of the things that popped up at the top of google. This is some article posted on a university site, written by a twenty-something, I assume:

http://www.cds.caltech.edu/~shane/te...ifecrisis.html

Here's a book on Amazon. I like this because if you click on "Search inside" you can read the whole first chapter! I thought it was pretty interesting:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/158...lance&n=283155

[maroki13]

I can't help but wonder if threads like this turn away 'prospective' brides, especially young ones, who are interested in joining our site. We sure aren't getting a lot of new members. Not to mention the way some members flamed the poor woman who talked about her 'love at first sight' story. She hasn't been back since. Not such a great welcome.

[Complicated Woman]

Jen, some of that stuff I can really relate to having felt after my freshman year of college -- that I wasn't where I wanted to be, I didn't know what I wanted or needed, I felt like my priorities were all screwed up. I had been obsessed with fulfilling this image I created for myself -- I wanted to have a perfect average, be fit, be involved in community service and the arts, be a perfect friend and girlfriend, have a stylish dorm, know about computers and music, but still be relaxed and cool enough to hang out and watch a baseball game -- I wanted to be perfect in general, I guess -- I think because I wanted my mother to know I was a success and I wanted everyone to like me. The poor woman, I blame everything on her...seriously, it was my mistake, I just think that was what spurred me on when I thought about it. I ABSOLUTELY defined myself by my accomplishments instead of by what's within, probably in part because I wasn't sure anyone would like what's within me. I actually read a different book, called Velvet Elvis -- it's written by a pastor about a new take on Christianity, so it isn't relevant to reccomend, but he pointed out that he wasted a lot of time trying to be a Super Pastor and that we really need to kill our delusions of being a Super-Whatever -- mom, student, spouse, teacher -- because we'll always feel plagued with failure when really, we're not failures at all. I really took that to heart and it's helped me a lot. When I released some of that pressure I put on myself , I had a lot more room to stretch out and grow, KWIM?

Maroki, IDK if threads like this do turn off new members, but I know I appreciate authenticity more than I do anything else, and I *think* we will probably draw in people who want honest connections because they sense that we're really bonded and honest with each other.

[Marrying_the_Good_Husband]

I don't think she was planning on participating on the forum in any other capacity than that one topic. Had she posted elsewhere on the site other than stating the SAME thing what seemed like 50 times that would have been another story.

Isn't discussing the reality of marriage and potential emotional issues related to it an important part of a bridal site? I, for one, feel the focus should be on planning the marriage, not just the wedding.

[maroki13]

I don't think she was planning on participating on the forum in any other capacity than that one topic. Had she posted elsewhere on the site other than stating the SAME thing what seemed like 50 times that would have been another story.

She only ever had 3 posts. She started the thread about "love at first sight" and replied one time in it. She also posted in another section of the site, in response to someone else's post about a dress. She seemed to be interested in what was going on and replying to other people, until we gave her the most un-welcoming welcome I have seen yet.

Isn't discussing the reality of marriage and potential emotional issues related to it an important part of a bridal site? I, for one, feel the focus should be on planning the marriage, not just the wedding.

I feel this is important too. Sometimes, however, it is just not the right time. Say, when a member first joins and is overjoyed about sharing her story with us. Maybe once she has posted more and gotten to know us better it would be a more appropriate time to say "Did you ever question the love at first sight thing? Because, ....... ." Everything that was said to her in her introductory post could have been said at a later date. Instead, it seems it drove her away, and there will be no opportunity at a later date.

[Marrying_the_Good_Husband]

Honestly, I don't consider it a loss. Sorry. I know that's cruel. I think she was getting on several members' nerves. I also know I felt more incited based on PMs from people who were also ripping their hair out over her posts. And I was asked by a couple of people to "talk some sense into her." Several of us were mean out of frustration. It's not nice--but we also didn't have an established relationship and really didn't care to build one. Every once in a while a new person comes along who we immediately clash with. Who remembers PWRPUFFGIRLZ? Or all the girls from the "other" site? When someone comes on and there's instant drama, I have no intention of catering towards them so they "stick around" for more drama. Why would we want that? On the other hand, 99% of the other newer members would no doubt say they felt absolutely welcomed by everyone here.

And the purpose of this thread is to discuss some interesting views on marriage, so I think it's entirely appropriate to discuss. I don't see how people would be turned away by it. I know you've felt angry about "age-related" discussions. I'm sorry it's an issue for you. It's not a personal attack. I'm talking about a TV show and MY experiences. Other women are posting about THEIR experiences and Census reports, etc. No one's judging you, and I hope you understand that.